Friday April 12, 8:45 pm Eastern Time
SOURCE: SYS-CON Media
MONTVALE, NJ--(INTERNET WIRE)--Apr 12, 2002 -- SYS-CON Media (www.sys-con.com) published today a special editorial at its Java Developer's Journal Web site, focusing on the .NET vs. J2EE question surrounding the i-technology marketplace. JDJ editor-in-chief Alan Williamson's editorial entitled "There May Be Trouble Ahead..." sheds light on the hottest discussion topic of the year (www.sys-con.com/java/article.cfm?id=1401). Williamson's JDJ editorial was instantly picked-up and simultaneously published at Slashdot.org and JavaLobby.org Web sites.
There May Be Trouble Ahead...
As Nat King Cole famously sang, we have to "face the music and dance..." This month's editorial is coming to you with a reader beware warning!
I've been engaged in some great debates over the last month on a variety of topics, but the one that has caught my interest is the old chestnut regarding the longevity of Java. Is it here to stay? If not, how long do we have? Quite rightly, it's being talked about and I've had the good fortune to brush shoulders with a number of big names in our industry who have given me their perspectives on the whole debate. I have my own feelings about where Java is headed and I do believe that if, as a community, we don't get our act together, we may have only five years left at the most. After talking to my counterparts, it would appear I'm being overly generous with five years.
What's happening? Well, it's our old friend C# and its relentless march toward the development community. Setting aside the old argument that due to Microsoft's dominance it may well win the day, it's interesting to look at other reasons why C# may win the battle. Let's blow away some misconceptions that you may or may not be aware of regarding this new kid.
Myth #1: C# is a Windows-only technology.
You could be excused for believing that, but did you know there's a major movement in the open source world to port the CLR (Common Language Runtime, i.e., their JVM!) to operating systems other than MS Windows? Linux, to name one.
Imagine for a moment being able to run your .NET services alongside Apache on a Redhat box, seamlessly integrating into the rest of the network. This alone would be a major blow to server-side Java. It's also a subtle way for Microsoft to unofficially support the growing number of Linux seats without losing face (read www.halcyonsoft.com/news/iNET_PR.asp).
Myth #2: C# is an inferior Java clone.
This is the most dangerous one and the one you probably tell yourself in order to keep the scales tipped in Java's favor. The truth is, it's not an inferior clone; it's a different clone, with many arguing that the differences are minute to the majority of the developer community. It will be frighteningly easy for Java developers to move over to C# with no real headaches to contend with. I suspect this was always on Microsoft's mind when developing the language (read www.prism.gatech.edu/~gte855q/CsharpVsJava.html).
Myth #3: C# is for developing Web services only.
Most definitely not, and I have heard this one retorted back to me on a number of occasions. Ironically, this is the one area that could really hurt Java Ð on the client. As you know, Java has not made any significant headway in this space due mainly to its awfully slow Swing implementation. While the recent release of JDK1.4 has brought significant performance gains, it's still nowhere near the speed of its native Windows applications with respect to fast, snappy responses (although it must be said, the speed of a Swing application on a Mac OS-X does show what could be achieved).
C# is the new building block for Windows applications, the next VB! And we know how many applications popped up when VB hit the market (read www.c-sharpcorner.com/WinForms.asp).
Okay, how many of you think I've abandoned all hope for Java and have gone to the dark side? I suspect some of you are questioning my loyalties at this precise moment, wondering if I'm fit to occupy my role as EIC. Well, don't panic, I'm merely being a realist and looking at it from all angles. You'd be the first ones to complain if I buried my head in the sand and just ignored the threat. We have to look at this together and come up with a strategy that will enable us to effectively take on C#. We'll be getting a lot of heat from all over and we need to be armed with the information and prepared to go back to the drawing board and reeducate the masses. Sadly, they are being led a merry dance by Pied Piper Gates.
Allow me to cite you an example of such blind ignorance and if this doesn't scare you, then I don't know what will. I was recently involved with the Scottish government, discussing technology and what have you, where naturally the topic of Microsoft was high on the agenda. Excusing the fact that these people took a certain pride in believing they knew what was going on and loved name-dropping, the phrase that caught me off guard was the following: "Java? No one is doing that now. Microsoft is no longer supporting it."
Wow! Talk about a major miscommunication.
And this from someone who controls budgets for the technology sector in Scotland. Ironically, I believe he really thinks he has his finger on the pulse of technology. It's sheer ignorance like this that scares me the most. Microsoft has successfully planted and nurtured the seed in people's heads that just because it isn't supporting Java in Windows XP, Java is dead. I have to admit I was taken aback and quite flabbergasted when I heard that retort. I really didn't know where to go with that. So much background information was obviously missing that I wasn't too sure if I would come over as patronizing and whether, ultimately, they would understand.
Sadly, this is not an isolated incident. Ever since I started writing about this topic in my editorials, I've been hearing stories from you regarding similar misconceptions and it scares me. We have a beautiful language here in Java; it has achieved industry-wide support and is pushing forward with great velocity. What can we do to support it?
You do realize we need an anthem. All great causes have an anthem. Something for us to get behind and sing!!! Suggestions gratefully received. We need a Java song!
Until next month...
Some Reaction to the above...
What's the point here?
Posted by
Albert 2002-04-11 18:02:24
Does the editor want to sway readers to the MS C# camp after reading this article? Otherwise, I was wondering what his real point.
Well, if he wanted to alert readers that there are portings of CLR into linux, C# might be better than Java, it does not have to be in the first page (can be in news or others). The more importnat facts are: - Java can be executed in a J2EE environment which is platform independent. Though you probably can port C# to Linux and has C# perform the same as its java counterparts client-wise, what if it requires enterprise capabilities? (myth 1) - myth 2 is a misconception. C# can be better sometimes since it is derived from Java. However, the more important fact is: java has been around for a while and there are a lot of applications around Java that addresses real enterprise needs. You see Java applications for ERP, CRM, SCM, KM etc. Probably you will have to wait a while (2-3 years) to see applications in C# for them. At that point, these Java applications will be much more sophisticated. - Related to the above point, the adoption/popularity of a language not only depends on the language itself, it is also driven by the serious business applications on that language. From this perspective, Java is way ahead of C#. We also have some very bright and serious minds behind Java and open source in writing serious business apps. - C# is a good language so it should be good at client/UI application in addition to web service. It is true that .NET is ahead of J2EE in terms of web service. However, J2EE 1.4 will have web service and it has JCA, ebXML (Sun's). Plus web service might be over-hyped. (myth 3) - Just look at how MSFT execute its visions for .NET. Did they say the CLR would support 20, 30 some languages? Did they make VB.NET harder for old VB programmers?
Just want to see some positive and insightful comments/observation in the editorial, after seeing several pessimitic arctiles from him since he came on board.
#
Uh...that wasn't Nat King Cole...
Posted by
Dan Delaney 2002-04-11 20:02:52
While Irving Berlin's "Let's Face the Music and Dance" was sung by just about every big-time singer in the 30s, 40s, and 50s (including Nat King Cole, Frank Sinatra, Tony Bennet, and just about all the other big names), the performance that continued to be the most famous was the original Fred Astaire performance in the 1936 film "Follow the Fleet".
Just to correct a bit of incorrect trivia :o)
Cheers. --Dan
#
Mantra change required
Posted by
Hanek 2002-04-11 23:32:22
There is basically nothing wrong with JAVA .... and that is the problem !. If the provision of Enterprise grade applications with excellent portability is the point, yes JAVA is fine. But to compete in the MS/C#/CLR space, JAVA's mantra needs to change or JAVA will become a niche language.
Thus, "write once, run everywhere" must give way to "1.Write once. 2a. Test everywhere 2b. Compile to native (if speed is an issue) 3. Deploy bytecode or executable as neccessary"
Why do i say that ? Look at http://www.excelsior-usa.com/home.html for some exciting options. BTW, I have no affiliation of any kind with the company but have tracked their progress for some time now.
My answer in short is - we need to have a choice to answer the .NET/C#/CLR hype/threat without abandoning the JAVA legacy.
Perhaps, a SUN initiative or even an open source initiative for a JET like product can do a lot before it is too late. I am desperately hoping so.
#
Myth: Editors focus on the relevant issues when comparing technologies
Posted by
Jeff Hamel 2002-04-12 01:13:17
This article is typical of the overwhelming amount of bad information that we are hammered with each day. C# and Java are JUST computer languages. To draw the conclusion that Java has 5 years left because an emerging language is going to defeat it is just ridiculous. In the end it does not matter much if C# were to completely overtake Java in popularity. The leaders of organizations are not asking their technical staffs to recommend the best programming language rather they are asking for the best suite of technologies and services to make them more competitive. On this point I contend that the J2EE platform ('market-place') is not only the most capable and cost-effective set of enterprise technologies but the vary strategies of .Net and J2EE will continue to keep J2EE ahead despite the marketing muscle of MS. MS will always be around and .Net will make some headway (a sucker is born every second) but I think they are going to rethink their strategy again in a few years (remember DNA?). MS's real threat is that threat that all software firms need to be worried about. Opensource. Few if any firms are making money on webservers today. BEA admits that the appserver is in the process of becoming a commodity. This trend is moving up the application stack until we will see acceptance of open-source applications that solve real problems. J2EE can live in this environment. MS and its .Net technology has no real response to the opensource problem. There will be open-source .Net projects but why would I choose them over equivalent ones that run on any operating system? The C# language might port to other OSs but the .Net framework will not locking you onto a windows platform. So what do you really gain?
So, if I missed a real reason why Java might be dead in 5 years please educate me.
#
C++ is back, long live Java
Posted by
Jonathan 2002-04-12 03:39:47
I have a theory... C++ is complex, and hard to work with on multi platform projects (gui libs, unix libs etc). Along comes java and blows me away, it saves my projects millions, and works on all the platforms (ok with tweaks). Initially high quality developers got into java, and then the masses followed. Loads of java projects started, and the gui's were kinda rubbish. And the teams were maybe not producing the quality code that the C++ teams still did. Java wobbles for a bit, J2EE 'saves' the day. But the masses hate it cos its hard (and ridiculous IMHO). C++ contract rates start to outperform java again, java is now 6 years old, and wierd. Some kind of in memory db is being pushed (EJB), and no one really knows why they should bother.
Then msoft comes along with c#. About time, pity its microsoft and not IBM or HP. Why, cos they don't care about X platform. The masses will sweep into c#. Leaving C++ and Java to server side unix projects... and there will be less and less of these. I recon 5 years is about right. By then, I hope that sun and IBM will have developed the c# killer. cos by then it will also be old and rubbish.
Fashion, turn to the left, fashion, right, fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fashion.
#
|
The Point The points are that C# and .Net are viable implementation platforms. And if the people who control the money think Java is dead then Java is dead. It's the second one that is the problme that needs to be addressed.
|
#
The people who control the money
Posted by
Jeff Hamel 2002-04-12 10:54:18
There was only one firm that had a real shot at controlling the money. MS. The market is already choosing the better solution since we are now empowered to choose OSs. They just pulled back Hailstorm due to the lack of acceptance by their target market. eBay was to be their shining example of the power of .Net. Well eBay changed its mind. Why do you think this happened? Will Java be here forever? No. But it will not be .Net that replaces it.
.Net makes all languages compatible
Posted by
James Anderson 2002-04-12 17:12:38
Alan's discussion of Java versus C# didn't include the real reason why .Net is poised to dominate Java, and that is, it defines a platform-neutral runtime for ANY language, not just Java or C#. While the same could be done with Sun's JVM, Microsoft has seized the opportunity to be the first to market with this technology, and should Sun attempt to do the same it will lead to confusion, and in the confusion Microsoft will have the advantage, with their glossy, fully-integrated develoment environment.
Also, had Scott McNealy not been so greedy and arrogant with the Java language, and submitted it as an open standard, the lawsuit against Microsoft might not have occurred and Microsoft might still have a JVM in IE.
On the positive side, at least someone other than Microsoft will be developing the CLR for UNIX and Linux!
#
Ya so, there's Gnome Basic to run VB apps on Linux.
Posted by
Charles Eakins 2002-04-12 17:27:39
I'm not sure what the point of this was, since a cross platform .net is a long way off. Simply put, my company has saved lot's of development time with Java, since we work on multiple platforms, just about every known unice known to man, and Windows.
#
Yeah Sure, UH HUH
Posted by
James Wide 2002-04-12 17:51:46
No surprise this article was written for a company that uses ColdFusion for database intergration on the web :).
Furthermore, Java(TM) is taught at numerous Universities/Colleges and other education institutions--High Schools. The popularity of Java(TM) seems to be increasing significantly at least in the educational environment because a) 'it works' b) it is not from a company named Micro$oft, and c) its free--they even let you view source of class files!
#
Hes crazy
Posted by
cgilbert 2002-04-12 17:51:54
Why would M$ allow a cross platform Java to be replaced by a cross platform c#?? How is this in m$ interest?
We know they dont favor crossplatformization one single bit. Im baffled why he said this.
#
Let's Face the Music & Dance
Posted by
Andrew Buc 2002-04-12 18:18:28
Diana Krall does a very nice version of it.
Re: hes crazy
Posted by
Tim Hawkins 2002-04-12 18:36:10
The more platforms that run MS's VM, the more target audience there is for running MS applications.
Remember the only real reason for windows to exist is to run MS productivity suites such as Office, Windows was originaly created as a runtime enviroment for MS applications.
#
Your right and many are too blind to see.
Posted by
Steven Tower 2002-04-12 19:48:29
I have been a Java developer going on 7 years now. I was very lucky to have gotten in on the ground floor. However I have disccused lately with other developers that we really are at a cross roads. Sun has been arrogant to the point of insult and has shrugged off real concerns and problems. Sun needs to completely embrace their community, open sourced and otherwise. They need to wake up and smell the Java so to speak. I hope and expect Java to be my language of choice for years to come. But I can't deny a viable alternative. Sun has completely failed on the desktop. Yeah, you can argue oh look at this great app and that one, but truth be told Sun blew it, OS/2 had some great apps too. If C# makes even small inroads on the server and on the desktop Java is in REAL Trouble. Microsoft doesn't need massive wins, once they have their foot in the door on both they will start to squeeze on all sides. Don't hide your heads in the sand or hold them so high in arrogance with a belief that because they haven't already, Microsoft won't find a way.
#
April Fools! Got ya all, didn't he? :^)
Posted by
Chrisf 2002-04-12 20:03:06
Yeah, wake me up when you have something serious to say....
#
YES! Java People Need to get their act together.
Posted by
midwest_developer 2002-04-12 20:04:26
The author is very true. But... for some of the wrong reasons. I believe Java's doom comes from its lack of good development tools.
For instance, I downloaded JBuilder from Borland. It SUCKS. It is slow, looks bad (even the fonts), and is a pain to use. Hell, the mouse wheel STILL does not work. Do you think MS wrote VS.net in C#???
Now, look at Visual Studio. VS.NET is a work of art. I HATE the fact that Microsoft is light-years ahead of everyone in the IDE realm.
On the other hand, Eclipse has some hope, but is YEARS away from being on par with VS.NET.
IBM, SUN, ORACLE, BORLAND...TAKE NOTE. Build a IDE (NOT WITH SWING) that is on the same level as Microsoft's tools.
I want a GREAT IDE that will do Java, JavaScript, HTML, XML, and will connect to the Web Server, Database Server, Application Server, Queue Server, and what ever other server I am programming for.
I want an IDE that will be responsive and LOOK AND FEEL like my other desktop applications.
I want an IDE that is on PAR with MS's.
Thank you for my rant. I hope it does not fall on deaf ears!
midwest_developer midwest_developer@hotmail.com
#
He's right on the money!
Posted by
Michael Julson 2002-04-12 20:08:54
I agree with his suggestions and beliefs of where Java might be in the future.
Sun has been so busy fracturing the language into so many pieces with the hope that it will be the language for all situations and all needs.
Because of this fracturing, it's become a weaker language and has suffered.
I welcome C#. With it's similarities to Java, it puts some tougher competition to Sun, IBM, etal. and will make the language better off for it. Beyond that, I'll be able to use it for desktop apps that don't crawl at a snails pace.
With the tight Web Services infrastructure, it will be a fantastic integration language that can certainly be used in the market. Sun sitting on it's butt saying that Web Services isn't the way to go is proof that Sun has lost all points of reference in what's needed in that market and is another point of proof that they've spread the language too thin going in to many directions and not the correct ones.
It's time that Sun give's up it's grip on Java. Put it out to the standards bodies to control and let it live.
#
I agree
Posted by
scott jorgen 2002-04-12 20:59:11
Look, lets get over ideology here. Java is good, but C# is better.
It aint hard to improve stuff when working with it and studying it for a few years.
Frankly I don't care which wins, they'll both be around on all platforms and both will be around for years.
Its just from what I've used of both, C# is better
#
MS understands that
Posted by
Dennis Lu 2002-04-12 21:31:00
Just because Java is being taught in universities now does not mean that it will always be this way. Version 1 of the .net framework just came out and so universities are starting to listen. C# and .NET is not just some kind of comercial product like office. It has some technical merit. Microsoft realizes they need to get universities to pick it up and they are spending and trying hard to make sure students and professors don't dismiss C#.
#
Someone fire this scum!!!!
Posted by
sfitz 2002-04-12 22:14:18
Well I would hope that the publisher will realize this clown doesn't know the difference between VB,VC, and that VI does not mean Visual Interdev. I had some respect for JDJ, that has all gone out the window....pun intended. Someone cancel my subscription. If I wanted java information like this I would subscribe to a Microsoft press fudzine.
#
WxJava
Posted by
Thom 2002-04-12 23:22:21
It doesn't exist yet but to kill C# it takes but one thing. WxJava! Get yourselves over to WxWindows.org and make it happen!
#
Its just branding. Get over it.
Posted by
Jason 2002-04-12 23:43:48
OK, so he spends 90% of the article dooming and glooming about Java's future and marveling at the power of .NET, then at the very end he tried to rally us to take heart in a non-existent Java anthem that will make it all go away?
Lets face it. Nobody knows what is going to happen.
On one hand, we have MS. They have a pretty strong following in the business world. They're branding is fantastic. They have all sorts of cool commercials (however cryptic and uninformative they may be) and for some strange reason, lots of people believe in them.
On the other hand, we have Java, Billions of lines of Java code floating around the Internet. There are lots of enterprise applications and systems in place. Millions and millions of dollars already invested. Who is going to want to basically flush everything they already have away just to jump on MSes latest buzzword?
Here is how I see it. Software development is split into two main categories (as always, with some exceptions). You have the MS shops. These guys work with MFC, DOM, VB, VJ++, VC++, whatever else MS sells them. Admittedly, I don’t use their stuff so I don’t know much about it.
Then there are the non-MS shops. These are the places that use Java, Perl, Borland, Unix, Sendmail. It is going to be very difficult to convert the non-MS shops over to MS shops. They have not converted yet, why should they now? MS has sworn everything they’ve ever produced would change the world. They are marketing it. That’s the way it works.
Just calm down, in five years, neither Java nor .NET (if it is still around) will be anything like they are now. This whole debate will seem silly and pointless.
#
Who cares?
Posted by
Jeff Fulmer 2002-04-13 00:12:48
The advocacy that runs the the jJava community jAmazes me. You don't hear C / C++ and perl programmers agonizing over the impending C# invasion. They will simply continue to do what they do best and people will continue to pay them for their expertise...
#
whatever
Posted by 2002-04-13 00:30:53
Isn't cobol supposed to be dead and gone? is it? is it!!? will it ever be? probably not. Lame article.
#
Java will rule
Posted by
Java King 2002-04-13 00:44:23
no matter what his allan man thinks he is talking about, JAVA will rule the planet and micro$oft can play catch up
#
FSCK M$, Try Fortran#!!!
Posted by
nope 2002-04-13 00:54:00
Imagine: being able to run your Fortran# applications on your OS/2 Warp# server!! In a word: WOW#!
Think of how productive# your fat, lazy corpo-programmer-drones will be then!!
#
unlimited votes on article rating
Posted by
m0d b0Y 2002-04-13 01:02:43
Yup. You can click this f*cker all the way down to 1.0 and change if you wanna. Just keep a clickin, It's like frogger with a bajillion credits!!!
#
Isn't
Posted by
Aisha Fenton 2002-04-13 01:12:52
C# is set to become the dominate client-side language. MS will make it very fast and a natural choice to program in for windows (even games could be easily writen in it, since they'll have good direct X support).
We can't just ignore it and attack anyone that tries to talk about it. We have 5 years to make java better, lets get going.
#
Re: Generation X's & more obsersation
Posted by
Albert 2002-04-13 02:20:19
My original comment (What's the point here) is just to reflect the fact that the editorial page is misleading (porting to C# CLR to Linux won't be a potential major threat to Java given the enterprise capability comes with J2EE). I also don't like the pessimistic/non-constructive view of the editor. As a leading Java journal, the editor should be much more constructive and solid in editorial reviews.
I was also not predicting the outright victory of Java without good vision, execution, collorations of the current leaders and java advocates. I simply just point out the fact that currently, in terms of real enterprise applications and suites (eg. CRM, ERP II, SCM, KM etc), Java is way ahead of C#. It will take C# and .NET at least 2-3 years, if at all possible, to reach to the level of sophistication Java currently implements. To put it in a simple sentence, you won't see ERP, CRM or SCM applications implemented in C# in the next 2-3 years. Please note, we are not talking about pure technology here. It is about real application and business needs. The point again here is: business and real world needs will be a major factor in determining a technology's life.
However, I do have concern for Java. Not because of its technology, capability, momentum or business preference. But because of others (e.g. widespred of misleading info, conflicts of interests/visions of the Java advocates/leaders, etc). I also don't think Sun is arrogant in flighting with MSFT. It just positions MSFT differently. Just look at McNealy's recent SunOne speech ("he's fighting it for his children's future"). You know, how to position the target will affect strategy and execution a lot. The outcome might be different.
However, I am still optimistic, given maturity and versatilty in open source, given IBM's big push for linux, given Steve Jobs might port Mac OS to Intel, given so many good practices/patterns/applications in Java, given MSFT might bet wrong and they don't have competitors in their space...
#
Sadly, I have to agree
Posted by
David Bolsover 2002-04-13 03:44:04
Sadly, I have to agree with much of what Alan wrote in his editorial. The level of ignorance and misunderstanding amongst so called IT professionals is astounding. Only last week, the Technical Manager of the organization I am presently working for referred to a sophisticated web application built on the struts framework as a JavaScript! He was blissfully unaware of the differences between Java and JavaScript.
When I tried to explain that explain the difference between Java and JavaScript, he suggested that we would have to abandon the project in favour of ASP soon anyway because MicroSoft were not supporting Java under XP. - I left the room!
My point is this - The Java community must make renewed efforts to communicate the merits of Java to the wider community if it is to survive; personally, I think that Sun must take the lead in this - a few well placed full page adverts in National daily papers would not go amiss - free CD's on magazine covers - anything that promotes the Java message
#
Java 1.4 without ActiveX support will kill Java on the desktop
Posted by
robert 2002-04-13 03:54:55
The editor thinks that whats holding back Java on the desktop for applications is the lack of a responsive user interface. This is a valid point. However the question is, how much does Sun even want Java Apps on the Desktop? The removal of the Java ActiveX bridge in 1.4 shows that they actually dont care wether there is any interoperability with most of the desktop apps/windows out there. Which is really a shame and will help a lot that people move to C#.
#
Tools are the key
Posted by
Nick Riordan 2002-04-13 05:19:56
I spent 10 years building apps exclusively for the Microsoft platform using Microsoft tools (C and C++). Two years ago I changed jobs and I have since been working with Java/Corba and EJB. I like Java - but I think C# offers similar benefits. It has already been said in this thread that the client is important - and let's face it, Swing is probably the waekest area of Java.
But my real issue is the lack of proper tools for Java. If you have spent any time working with MS technologies you really appreciate the properly integrated, high performance, polished feel - it makes development a pleasure. Recently I moved across to Idea as my IDE in Java - it's the best Java IDE I've found so far (I really want to like Netbeans, but it just never seems to be finished and the performance sucks). Idea is about as good as Visual C++ 4.2 - that's a product that shipped 5 years ago.
I want seamless end to end debugging (client - middle tier - SQL). I want high speed - and no performance degredation when running under the debugger. I want folding editors, proper dialog editing etc. etc. This is the point - you can be so much more productive under C# just because of the tools.
#
Doesn't Really Matter
Posted by
wisaac 2002-04-13 06:09:50
I didn't study CS so that I could be a C programmer, a C++ programmer, or a Java programmer. I studied CS, because I like computers, and I like developing software. The platform, and the language are irrelevant. I like to think about the look and feel of an app that I plan to develop. I like to think about the algorithms that will make it run efficiently. If Java happens to be the best language for the job, then that is what I will use. But I am not tied to any language. If Java goes away, I will happily implement my ideas by using some other language.
#
its just a tool
Posted by
matt 2002-04-13 07:28:25
java is a tool that helps me do stuff. if there is a better tool around, I use it.
If java can't do what most people want to do, then they will use something that can.
that's kinda how the market works.
#
re: Pagination
Posted by
Alan 2002-04-13 08:11:19
Joe Sixpack wrote : You can always tell a
shoddy article by the number of times you have to click to get to the next page.
I mean come on, only 5 clicks? And only 3 or 4 paragraphs a page?
He was being facetious, but it is a bit extreme. I always look for the "print
this" link on articles which generally gives you a single page without ads.
#
C# has no chance
Posted by
Jim Heason 2002-04-13 10:20:26
Hey Alan did you ever write code for a living. Well if money talks & shit walks your a good example . I have been coding Java for 4 years and currently trying C# and C# stinks. Dont write these kind of crap in JDJ. C# has memory leak , security holes that Java doesnt have. By the way did u try CLR it is a pure farse. But hey money can buy anything :)
#
Lost faith in JDJ
Posted by
Sarwar Mansoor 2002-04-13 10:32:30
After reading this I have lost faith in JDJ. I thought this was true Journal on Java. I am reading Java Pro from now on. I code for a living and love coding but I am not selling my soul.
#
TOOLS??
Posted by
Shawn Rummel 2002-04-13 10:55:55
The only way I can see C# even coming close to Java is if the are other IDE than what M$ has to offer. I have used VC and it doesn't hold a candle to CBuilder. Your contention is that managers will prefer C# but it is not mangers who do the work. If you re concerned with managers how about exploring the cost of development between JAVA and C#. In the end I think this is just M$ spin to sway people from realizing that Java is becoming more popular tha C++
#
activeX? no thanks!
Posted by
M$hit 2002-04-13 11:37:22
ActiveX is simply a bad thing.... who wants it?
#
You can read JavaPro until they go out of business...
Posted by
Hohn Harrisburg 2002-04-13 12:03:03
like Java Report did. Do you remember Java Report? Where are they now? Gone. Anyone else except JDJ is on life support, can't afford their payroll. Whatever else is out there, they are not relevant to voice Java.
JDJ is the only honost Java magazine out there. Not only they are the leader and everyone reads JDJ but they are the only one with real editorial content. Did you compare the two magazines lately? Java Pro has a new editor every 3 months. They are in trouble.
Alan Williamson is editing JDJ for 6 years and he is the top authority in the world when it comes to Java. Just offering a reality check... There is a reason why JDJ is JDJ.
Read JavaPro while CMP is still publishing it, when they fold they will mail you .NET magazine because if you ever read JavaPro before, you would know that its editorials are written and signed by Bill Gates himself..
In case you didn't know..
My 2 cents, my friend...
#
Hey...
Posted by
hp 2002-04-13 14:28:32
Ti lene tora aftoi oi ka8ysterymenoi?
#
Re: He's crazy
Posted by
B.Hettrick 2002-04-13 21:05:45
First you capture the development tools market with a (potential)cross platform toolset.
Then when you have a large % of system development being done under .NOT you release a new OS in the process removing the legacy shackles of Windoze.
Suddenly you have instant application compatibility with your OS, sure other Unix based variants will benefit from the .NOT app portability but be honest when the crunch comes at decision time in the IT management arena and you have the 'risky' left wing O/S's and the corporately 'correct' M$ OS which one wins?.
For that matter which one wins right now?.
Java lost it's fight on the client side and that's where the rubber hits the bitumen, server side is not even visible it's the client apps that _everyone_ sees and uses and this is the domain of M$.
Just my 2 cents worth.
#
C# mustnt be allowed to win
Posted by
RIchard 2002-04-13 21:10:17
It is vitally important that C# doesnt take over. It is vitally important that Microsoft are not allowed to rule supreme. Sun are the only company capable of keeping Microsoft from that goal, and they have done a good job so far by producing very high quality products like Solaris (SPARC and x86), Star Office, Forte, and of course Java and making them freely available to almost everybody. We have all seen the rubbish that Microsoft try to feed us, and the extorsionate prices we are forced to pay for them. Sun need Java, and therefore so do we.
Incidentally, if the American Government werent so reliant on Microsoft to prop up the economy, most of the Executives and Gates could be locked up for more crimes that we have laws for, including I believe terrorism!!
#
Client apps
Posted by
JohnW 2002-04-14 14:16:07
The major market where the cross-platform portability of Java should score is in desktop apps. I agree with an earlier contributor that Sun has not paid enough attention to this aspect in Java. If Java essentially becomes a server side only tool with basically HTML/XML clients then it leaves the client side open to Microsoft. I have been successfully developing multi-user applications software for businesses in Cobol for almost 30 years (Acucobol actually, which compiles to a meta language and a CLR of sorts, and supports a full GUI interface - for all of you who think I'm a dinosaur of the green screen variety. I was looking forward developing a piece of software for the home/very small business market with limited networking elements later this year in Java - now I'm not sure what to do. I would like my product to be able to run on Windows, Linus, and Macs but if Java's Swing doesn't "cut the mustard" from a performance point of view must I go for C# and limit my market to Windows and wait for a CLR for Linux and Macs? I know that IBM and Oracle have invested a huge amount of money in Java development, surely they must be developing efficient and effective client side software in Java as well as all the (good) J2EE stuff? Any suggestions?
#
RE: The demise of C#
Posted by
IloveVB.net 2002-04-14 16:36:33
Um....VB is now over 10 years old....MS is good at throwing out upgrades every couple of years, but actual NEW PRODUCTS don't come along very often. Take your example: Win95 98 and ME...how much different are they REALLY????
#
A religious following is a symptom of decline
Posted by
Mark Miller 2002-04-15 05:08:46
I've seen this happen too often in the technological world, and I've been in it since the early 1980s. It's like a pattern. A technology starts faltering, and the ways part. Some people use it until they feel its usefulness is exhausted and then move on to something else. The others form a cult-like following that is dead-set against using any other technology from what they love. They say things like, "If only they would do X, then people would see how great it is and start using it," and other plaintive cries of worry. Or, you get the cheerleaders who say, "Let's make it better!" They don't look at integrating other useful technologies, because of course, their's is so wonderful. They develop strong biases against outside technologies, in fact. They don't see their own technology's weaknesses. They don't want to see them.
The reality is a tool is a tool. A language is a language. That's all they are. You are really fooling yourself if you ascribe religious significance to them, or an emotional attachment. It's not the end of the world if Java dies. Likewise the world is not saved if C# doesn't make it. It's like worrying without end whether Snap-On will "fight off" Craftsman tools, or something. If you did that out in public, people would look at you funny, because in the real scheme of things, it doesn't matter that much. In addition, religious fanaticism about a technology is not real attractive in the workplace, for good reason.
Use tools for their usefulness to serve people. The end user and people in management don't give a damn what language you use. Honest. What they care about is if you deliver something that works, fits the requirements, looks nice, is on time, and within budget. In the world of the Internet, people care about ease of use, reliability, and security.
In order for a technology to thrive, it needs to be marketed, both to developers and business people. For developers, they need to see how it makes it easier for them to satisfy their bosses, and reduces their stress level in their day to day activities. For the bosses, they need to see what sort of solutions they can create with it that open up new and profitable possibilities for them.
Sometimes to my own chagrin, I've noticed that ordinary people think that if they can't see it, it doesn't matter. That may be the reason some think Java is fading out. They haven't seen it (as in, on the screen) in action in a while.
Java needs the non-devoted to be excited about it, and recognize that it is very practical at the same time.
Two perceptions I've had about Java, for example, are 1) it's slower than other languages, and 2) it's a world unto itself, and is a chore to integrate with other software technologies. Maybe these are misconceptions, but these sorts of things are not fair. You gotta convince me by showing me or wowing me. One of the two.
In short, the goal should not be to "save Java," but rather Sun, whom everyone identifies with Java, needs to be pragmatic and find out what people want out of a development environment, deliver it, and market the heck out of it. If they don't do it, no "community" effort is going to do much to "save" it. You'll only be delaying the inevitable. I know because I've been there. It takes leadership from the top if anything of substance is going to happen.
Don't make this a religious or social movement. Make it a wake-up call to Sun that they need to fundamentally change the way they approach Java's development.
#
Its not CMP, it is Fawcette Publishing
Posted by
david 2002-04-15 11:19:00
and JavaPro was called "Microsoft Interactive Developer" before they changed the name to JavaPro. I had a subscription to the microsoft magazine, all of a sudden i started receiving java magazine from them.
Also C++ magazine by the same publisher is now called "Visual Studio Magazine." this publisher just renamed their xml magazine last month too. some magazine publishers often do that when their magazines are in trouble and when they start loosing money.
So they did this in the past, they may do it again. They may soon call JavaPro, .NET magazine and there goes your argument.
Alan Williamson is not sold-out, Rick Ross was not sold-out either when he wrote a piece about the .NET threath in JDJ a couple of months ago.
we need to look at the big picture...
#
.NET bound to fail.
Posted by
Jamie 2002-04-15 11:30:13
I have to say that the author of this article has no Java experience. It seems like he will listen to marketing pitch more that looking at reality. Lets see C# wants to be like Java from what I have seen I dont need no nosense opinion from Alan to change my view. C# has a lot of issues that will not be fixed. MS taking .Net to open source tells a lot about Java's success , they are scared of Java. No wonder it is most programmed language these days. I have writing code for 10 years and I have to agree Java is here to stay even when I retire as the most dominant language. Alan stop bitching and start learning Java
#
Critically Important Commentary
Posted by
Miles Parker 2002-04-15 12:06:45
What an incredibly important commentary. It is literally laughable to suggest that Alan has some kind of Pro-MS Anti-Java bent. Instead, what he is offering is something we all need to hear.
Strangely, companies and developer communities have never lost by overestimating Microsoft, they have _always_ lost by underestimating them! How this still happens when the track record is so bad is beyond me, but, please, please please, let us not be like Netscape ("we _own_ the browser market"), IBM, Sybase, soon to be Palm, and so many companies in between.
WE CANNOT AFFORD TO HAVE OUR HEADS IN THE SAND!! .Net is a very real threat.
That Alan have received such a load of BS because he is willing to ask real questions is dismaying, to say the least, and makes me think that Java developers are more concerned about living in a state of comfortable and smug denial than in fighting to protect the diversity and strength that Java and associated tools have provided.
If we aren't honest with ourselves and willing to fight this battle day to day in the trenches, we will lose and indeed there will not be much left of Java in five years. Ask yourself, what did you think of the prospects of Netscape in 1997? Now we know that they were already doomed, in large part because of their own arrogance.
#
When did Java replace C++
Posted by
Dave Mikesell 2002-04-15 12:45:25
Java has found a niche in server-side IT development but C++ is prevalent there, too, as well as many places Java will never go: Windows applications, games, graphics, operating systems, and anything that requires a reasonable memory footprint and acceptable performance. C++ will be around for a long, long time.
#
Get your Java Pro facts straight
Posted by
Matt Carter 2002-04-15 14:10:07
Hi Hohn: Obviously you have a bee in your bonnet about Java Pro, but to set the facts straight: *We're not published by CMP but Fawcette *We're doing just fine (growing and sharpening out focus on Java developers and community) *We're not going anywhere. If you're curious about Java Pro why don't you look at what we cover, and get your information correct before jumping to conclusions. (Probably as wrong as assuming that Alan is jumping from the Java ship he's been solidly occupying for the past few years).
Thanks, Matt Carter/FTP
#
Java Pro vs JDJ
Posted by
James 2002-04-15 14:50:34
Even if Java Pro goes out of business I havent seen such non sense article there. I read JDJ & Java Pro and I think the Java Pro editor has her head straight.
#
Too late - .NET already has several anthems
Posted by
Don Box 2002-04-15 19:13:25
For what its worth, the Band on the Runtime is an informal combo that sings "anthems" for .NET developers. Check out http://www.sellsbrothers.com/fun/default.aspx for the lyrics of several of our tunes.
_______________________
#
Sung to "King of the Road"
Platform for sale or rent
who cares where all the others went
no more pointer, pushes, pops or peaks
I ain't got no memory leaks
I wrote ten lines of C# today
I was more productive than yesterday
I'm a programmer of mean by no means
I'm a king of the code
I feel sorry for those guys at Sun
DOTNET has got them on the run
But when I hear Scott McNeally whine
I say stick your VM where the Sun don't shine
Most folks agree VB DOT NET
Is the best version of Java that we've seen yet
I'm a programmer of mean by no means
I'm a king of the code
You C guys think all this stuff is new
A friendly runtime that hides the goo
I'm a VB guy, better watch out for me
'cause I've been writing managed code since 93
Database code's busted -- no time to cry
Patch it all to the newest API
I'm a programmer of mean by no means
I'm a king of the code
New waves they come and go so fast
COM was love, but love don't last
If COM was love than what's DOTNET
It's love without the cigarette
DOTNET will be here till we all get bored
Then we'll throw it away and invent DOT-ORG
I'm a programmer of mean by no means
I'm a king of the code
Bill G came from Seattle WA
Spread .NET across the USA
Plucked out pointers on the way
Shaved ref counting - started sporting GC
He said Hey babe take a walk on the wild side
Hey babe take a walk on the wild side
Chris Sells never once threw one away
In the end, he had to pay and pay
An object here, and object there
Memory is the place where they say
Hey Chrissie, take a walk on the wild side
I say hey babe, let's going back home and finalize
And the .NET girls go
Do do do do do do do do do do
do do do do do do do do do
doooooooooooooooo ah
<break>The musical stylings of Francesco Balena</break>
Jon Flanders came from out of the heartland
With ASP he's was everybody's darling
But he never lost his head
Even when they told him COM was dead
I said hey Jon, take a walk on the wild side
I believe they call it Interop-O-cide
Brian Randell came and hit the streets
Hoping .NET would bring inter-language peace
He hates it when those bigots say
C#'s for work, VB's for play
I say hey Brian, take a walk on the wild side
It's curly braces that make your code bonafide
My friend Don Box, he's just coding away
Though he was James Joyce for a day
Yeah I guess Don's pretty smart
But he mistakes his code for art
I say Hey Don, take a walk on the wild side
You're just a liquor salesman, it can't be denied
And the .NET girls go ....
And the .NET girls go
Do do do do do do do do do do
Do do do do do do do do do do
Do do do do do do do do do do
Do do do do do do do do do do
Do do do do do do do do do do
Sung to "Bennie and the Jets"
Hey kids - you wanna see a scene-o
Let's watch Billy Gates get it on with Janet Reno
We're talking anti-trust now - so stick around
Gonna rack legal bills that know no bound
Hey Joel Kline he's on the case
Oh man he's so spaced out
B-B-B-Bill G and the Feds
Billy he's so silly and litigical
The center of a courtroom scene
He's got those Harvard roots, class action suits
You know I read it in a magazine - oh yea
B-B-B-Bill G and the Feds
Hey kids, go crank up your browsers
You're in for nasty weather, gonna make you wet your trousers We're
gonna stifle competition with such as sense of ease Gonna bring those
bastards from Netscape down to their knees Hey Judge Jackson, have you
heard this case Oh man, his ruling was so spaced out
B-B-B-Bill G and the Feds
Billy he's so silly and litigical
The center of a courtroom seen
He's got those Harvard roots, class action suits
You know I read it in a magazine - oh yea
B-B-B-Bill G and the Feds
Bill G, Bill G, Bill G, Bill G and the Feds...
Bill G, Bill G, Bill G, Bill G and the Feds...
DevelopMentor's Conference.NET
Sung by the .NET
Band on the
Runtime
August 15, 2001
#